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Post by realdre on Sept 11, 2006 22:09:37 GMT -5
You can never call yourself a true seeker of justice if you do not examine both sides of an issue ideally....to explore that is not evil its honest.
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Post by powers on Sept 15, 2006 15:46:51 GMT -5
Both sides are important to explore, Dre. It's also important to understand the issues as a whole. The idea of an international treaty is that you do not have one country accounting for everything it does. Making war more "fair" may seem to destroy the whole idea of warfare but it allows wars to end and not completely destroy everything involved. You seem to make the point that if we wanted to stop Iran from doing something we're suspicious of, if Iran, Syria, or Lebanon wanted to destroy Israel, or if Spain wanted Portugals coastline, any of these nations may use whatever means they see fit to obtain their goal. It's very akin to me attacking my neighbors with any type of attack so that I may gain more property.
The purpose of laws, international or otherwise, is to stand united against a threat. I would not attack my neighbors because the issue would balloon to more than me and them. My actions would put the resources of the national law enforcement agencies against me as well.
Likewise, with treaties, the idea is that if we don't torture, our enemies would be kinder to us. Above that, any enemy that violates a treaty by using restricted weapons, attacks, or tactics would be declaring themselves against both their enemy and the whole of other nations supporting such treaty. We could ignore all rules and cause mass destruction on giant scale, but it would only perpetuate more of the same until we are left with nothing.
You mentioned earlier that the point of nuclear weapons was to be used. By your logic, I don't see why they haven't all be detonated. A nuke is intimidating. It deters others from attempting to cross or defy it's owners. Home security alarms have signs and window stickers not to help set off the alarm, notify authorities, or annonce to the neighborhood that it is going to go off; it's point is to make thieves try another house.
Those who are against Iran because their actions could someday lead to the creation of a nuclear weapon do not fear that end because Iran would certainly cause destruction with it. Nukes hold power and leverage. No country wants to see one used again but everyone feels they need to have several so they may protect or retaliate the next time one gets used.
You can never call yourself a true seeker of justice if you seek the opposite of everything justice stands for...
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duchamp
P&M Correspondent
Posts: 10
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Post by duchamp on Sept 16, 2006 23:08:26 GMT -5
You're my hero!
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poboy
P&M Correspondent
Posts: 25
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Post by poboy on Sept 19, 2006 21:18:11 GMT -5
WOW realdre. Legality has nothing to do with morality or ethics? Then what the hell good is any judicial system? No wonder this world is ruled by military coups or coups about to happen. Legal povitism? Let the good times and heads roll!
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Post by realdre on Sept 24, 2006 15:24:16 GMT -5
Justice is only defined by what one calls just...and that varies from one person to the next as to its extent and implication of said justice.
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Post by Nathan Morrison on Sept 25, 2006 23:55:10 GMT -5
Justice is only defined by what one calls just...and that varies from one person to the next as to its extent and implication of said justice. Fully 100% Disagreed. It does not vary, we are inherent signatories to the complete universal handbook of American Law. We call it the Constitution. I believe it is posted in an above thread. We actually have a defined judicial system, nay an entire 3rd branch of government, dedicated to justice! Justice is not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of due process, and of fair trial by jury. The system may not be perfect, but it is there. It is real. It is not open to debate or 'belief'. It can be touched, and held. You can read these laws at your local library or online. I understand this argument Dre, it is one of frustration. You must realize that it does not hold legal weight, simply ignoring a law because you don't think it should apply to you or that it is just. This is the shortsightedness that brought about the crimes of our current Administration. Bush didn't have the patience to understand or adhere to the law. He dismissed it, because it meant nothing to HIM, personally. What I am saying is that it does matter. It matters on a fundamental level that the rights of the people exist and are the exclusive domain of the people. It matters to the people, and the people govern this nation, not the President. The President serves at our discretion, no matter who that man or woman may be. Justice is not something that requires your approval. Our system of justice was decided for of and by the people, and it is real and valid for all it's strengths and all of its flaws. Should our system need improving upon, you are free to pass the Bar and participate in reshaping it. But I will not consent that Justice varies from person to person, that's simply an unamerican attitude. We are a land where certain truths are held to be self evident, foremost among these truths is that all men and women are created equal.
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wyldberi
P&M Regular Contributor
Posts: 93
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Post by wyldberi on Sept 26, 2006 15:31:20 GMT -5
The idea of justice is a universal concept. In the Western psyche, even the capricious gods of ancient Greece were not above being touched by the plight of mortal mankind. In tale after tale, men and women who sinned against the gods were punished for a time, and then released. In the Old Testament, Job was "tried" by Satan for a time, but in the end he received riches and offspring to replace those which had been taken from him; call it a form of "compensation."
American justice dates to English law and Magna Carta, where limits were placed upon the omnipotent king. Our founding documents affirm the principles set forth there and the development that took place in Common Law. By the time of the Enlightenment we find principles such as "all men are created equal and entitled to life, liberty . . ." had been clearly stated.
These are not just words written on paper by wimpy, bleeding-heart "liberals." These are statements of universal truth that resonate within the hearts and minds and souls of men who have not been corrupted by their desire to be more important than someone else. It's the outworking of the knowledge that in the end, we all leave this world/plane of existence the same way we entered, and an attempt to allow everyone to enjoy the same pleasures and experiences offered here. The alternative is a sense of eternal guilt for demanding you get more than the next guy.
Depriving people of life and liberty is what this bush administration is all about. It is about creating fear within the American people that our troops will one day be set loose in this country to do the same kinds of evil things they are currently doing in Iraq, unless we shut up and let the one-party demlican congress institute stuff like the Patriot Act and retroactive pardons for violating U.S. laws and international treaties, because the Bill of Rights offers "inconvenient" impediments to the ability of bush to prosecute his "war on terror."
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